Draztal poursuit sa conversation avec les joueurs sur les forums officiels. Le sujet de la discussion est l'équilibrage des raids et de leur difficulté, ainsi que le contenu de l'extension.
Si vous comprenez l'anglais les explications qu'il fournit offrent un bon aperçu de la philosophie de design des développeurs. Pour les autres le texte est particulièrement long, avec un nombre d'informations vraiment intéressantes assez faibles, en voici donc un résumé :
- Les modes défis auront droit en plus a de la difficulté brute supplémentaire par rapport aux modes Héroïques, avec des groupes de monstres additionnels et de nouveaux mécanismes.
- Les hauts faits sont la pour indiquer qui a tué quel boss et à quelle date, ils sont aussi la pour indiquer qu'un joueur l'a tué avant le nerf (même si les hauts faits sont toujours offert après le nerf).
- Les harmonisations aux donjons ont été supprimés entre autres parce que cela bloquait complètement le recrutement des guildes de haut niveau, il leur fallait des gens avec les accès et l'équipement, et ils ne tenaient pas du tout compte du talent du joueur au final.
- Les chaînes de quêtes d'accès aux donjons et raids ont été au final remplacés par les hauts faits Maîtres des traditions qui demandent d'accomplir quasiment toutes les quêtes.
- Bien que chaque extension soit à chaque fois décriée comme la pire qui ait été faite (pour Wotlk puis Cataclysm) elles ont à chaque fois apporté leur lot de nouveautés très positives.
Draztal sur Contenu des extensions et difficulté des raids (Source)
If that would be so, then why is TBC considered the best expansion for raiders, even with TK and Sunwell being so hard as they were? Loads of guilds could not complete SW, heck most guilds did not even raid at that level.
For the most hardcore raiders, yeah, sure it was fun. For the players that were somewhere behind (either Tier 5 or Tier 6 content, heck, even at Brutallus), things weren't exactly bright. I still remember the many threads we were seeing back then about Kael'thas and Lady Vashj breaking guilds...
Kael'thas, Muru, Kil'Jaeden, those fights were so hard they were massive brick walls, yet people liked it that way. And I bet it is because they gave a good challenge to even the most hardcore raiders. Thats what HM bosses should be, and should stay at -> hard, challenging and rewarding fights.
I understand this is the reasoning from the perspective of hardcore players, but there're many more players that for whatever reason don't really have the same level of skill. It doesn't take long for those players to go from fun to the frustration of realizing that, at their current skill level, they're facing an impossible challenge.
And the rewards have to more then a green "Herioc" tag for killing a nerfed boss. It has to be mostly the feeling that killing that boss really takes effort and the relieve of killing that boss after your 20th+ try on your own skills and not by a 5% debuff crutch must be whats driving you forward. Being rewarded for killing a weaker boss doesn't feel compelling to a lot of people.
To many other players, knowing that the boss is now 5% weaker, is compelling because it means they can have an easier time on things that were blocking them and will start progressing on the encounter.
So why is blizzard willing to take the achievement and prestige out of heroics. Trying to act like we're just being greedy for wanting heroics to MEAN something to down is pathetic. (which exactly how this blue is sounding)
Achievements aren't being removed from heroics, so that argument is rather moot. But if you really think that John Doe cares about what you did in a video game, you should really think again. Of course it means something to you, just don't pretend it means something for everyone, because that's not the case even in-game.
If you really think everyone needs to 'have room to move up or they'll get bored and quit' then screw it. Why have content that's hard at all - lets release 20 raid bosses all with a straight 25% nerf straight away so no one gets their feelings hurt that they can't progress.
There's a massive difference between having an appropriate challenge, hitting a brick wall, and steamrolling everything. If there's absolutly no challenge on any of the bosses, that would be as boring as hitting a raid full of Heroic Ragnaros for the players that don't have the skill to perform at that level. There're players that, very probably, could take on even harder incarnations of the bosses we've all seen. There're players that need a 5/10% debuff to have an adequate challenge, and there're players as well that even with the 30% debuff still struggle to advance.
And all of them are progressing at their own pace.
But now, all hardcore/semi-hardcore guilds have 8/8 DS HC
Can you prove that with data?. For some reason it's relatively common to have this perception that, because something is easier than before, everyone is getting it, and it's not true. The cold reality is that there're many raiding guilds that won't even see Spine Heroic before Mists of Pandaria is released (the skill difference between those guilds and the Top 200 in the world is THAT big).
The real funny thing is that if a player couldn't get past a certain hc in TBC he tried harder, joined other groups and got better gear
I know for many hardcore players, changing groups is not only acceptable, but pretty much mandatory. "If your current guild can't clear this, leave that sorry lot behind and aim for the sky". The reality is that many enjoy raiding with their friends and they'd rather stay there than join a guild that has Madness Heroic on farm status since Day 1, even if they can.
May I just say, I absolutely love the 3-tier system. The idea is quite brilliant indeed- I just think it needs more tweaking and balancing. That is, at what point to how much HCs should be nerfed, exactly HOW easy LFR should be, and which dungeons should be included- time will tell. My personal belief is that if most of the end content dungeons would be available in the 3 tier system, less people would complain about the "lack of content".
That's a very interesting thought, thanks for sharing it.
Are the Challenge Mode dungeons exactly the same as the Heroic Mode counterparts?
Although Jito has already responded to this (here), I'll add that Challenge mode is actually tuned harder than Heroic, and in some cases there might be even extra pulls or mechanics that aren't present on Heroic.
I haven't really thought about the jump in the tier gear, e.g from 12 -> 13. Even if the ilevel of the tier is on par with dungeon/rep reward level like I suggested, if the set bonus is more powerful than the previous, then LFR starts to feel more mandatory again. Any ideas on how this could be possibly addressed?
I think we should accept that guilds pushing for world firsts will do anything in their hands to get an edge. And it doesn't sound fair to punish the rest of the playerbase, preventing them from improving the gear of their characters, just because some guilds might get and edge on their race to world first.
You are basically saying that when confronted with a challenge the player must receive help to push past it.
Some players do need that help to progress on certain encounters. It's not necessarily a must, but it's true that there're players out there that wouldn't be able to kill a certain boss before the debuff reaches a certain percentage (if you kill a boss just with 5%, then you were pretty close already, by all means).
The part terrifies me. In terms of player satisfaction your keyword is "progression", my keyword is "challenge". Sorry, seems we're worlds apart
Both of them are the same. Progression brings a new challenge to overcome (unless you're at the end of the road). I'd say many players raid for the challenge and the experience, because they expect to overcome it eventually. That's were the line between progression and challenge might become distorted, as you start going through the different levels of skill our players have.
While to you a boss that is now 20% weaker than it was back then might look as an absolute non-challenge, the truth is that is still challenging for the players that are now progressing on it. So, the "challenge" is still there, and that's why, in that sense, for those players the debuff is almost a "must". If it wasn't for it, they wouldn't have anything else to do after defeating what's available to their own level of skill.
I am well aware that I am a tiny insignificant player compared to the millions playing wow; I am only trying to provide my own feedback which I believe is both my duty and right as a customer, as insignificant as I may be.
If you can put your thoughts in a clear and concise manner (which you clearly do), then it's not insignificant. We may agree or disagree, but that's it.
How then can you, Draztal, assume that you know that "many other players" see nerfs as compelling because they now have an easier time? That's just an assumption as well isn't it?
It's as much of an assumption as it is saying that many hardcore raiders find super difficult bosses compelling. I mean, it's just my way of trying to put into words that there's a segment of players that like the fact that, eventually, that boss they can't even think of killing right now, will be weaker enough to consider attempting it, and perhaps, succeeding at overcoming it.
I'd be crazy to not say that there are many hardcore raiders that find compelling fighting bosses that are absolutely insane for a huge majority of players.
You immediately solve all the issues. The people who need the nerfs, can still see the content, but get lower ilevel gear and the hardcores can play without nerfs to get their epeen gear.
So that those players can artificially feel superior to them? Isn't enough the fact that they defeated the boss without the debuff prove they're already better than them?
I don't understand why this can't be implemented like this? I don't think a player that performs less should get the same rewards as a daily theorycrafting elite player. We don't pay a cleaner the same amount as a surgeon.
This is a videogame, not a job. So it's pretty hard to relate that example to this environment, honestly.
Even if it was mandatory that you raid T11 content first, then T12 before you can get to T13, a lot of servers would only have one raiding guild running T13 content and wouldn't let anyone without T12 gear in.
This was happening back on the TBC days (I'll use it since it's been mentioned several times as the ideal "moment" of hardcore raiding). At some point through the BT/Hyjal/SWP cycle, in some realms guilds just started canibalizing each other, as the rest of the players just didn't have the gear, or the progression required to join them. Some guilds broke trying to defeat Brutallus, but I've always wondered how many players trying to enter those guilds, were rejected solely on the gear they had, rather than the actual skill they had, just because they were still playing catch-up to the players that had progressed more than them.
Draztal, don't you think it's a bit of a concern to sort of set the barrier really low in some things, however? I mean, I totally get the whole being accessible (I hate the word though XD) and as you can tell from my raid history I am one of those that come from a 'I used to raid but got tired of the schedules"-people for which LFR is excellent, and to a lesser degree normal mode.
However, I am greatly concerned where we are headed in general with gaming, into what seems like an environment where difficulty is not allowed to exist without a free pass, and learning curves is to be frowned upon. Failure is not an option - more or less. Don't you (and others here) feel that it's bad for both the longevity of the game, the sense of accomplishment that arises from solving things, and just general patience with the few things that should be hard will wane through this encouragement?
No, I don't think there's any concern on setting the barrier too low. I mean, anyone can play basketball, yet I know that the only thing in common I have with Michael Jordan when it comes to basketball skills is that he's also a human being.
Gaming has constantly been evolving, and it'll continue to do so for as long as this industry keeps moving. Difficulty is there, but the industry is probably moving away from punishing the players for things that, in the past, were seen as normal. Heck, back in the days even "casual" games (such as Super Mario) were punishing enough that, if you lost all your lifes (basically, the attempts at finishing the game), you had to start from scratch back in World 1-1.
Now - what can we do for Draztal. Oh yeah lets nerf the height of the hoop and the length of the field to Draztal also can get the above achievements - after all Jordan wont mind - he got them first and had fun doing them.
The proper equivalent to your comparison would be that, for Jordan's despair, I'd have fun playing with my friends and perhaps even winning local tournaments (thanks to them, not me, certainly). But, anyways, you're comparing the professional aspect of something anyone can do (play basketball) with a videogame. The differences in that regard, are, obviously, too big to even consider it a fair ground.
Anyways, let's leave that example up there, would be a shame if the thread went off-topic now when there're so many interesting posts going around. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)
Cataclysm Wasn't Entirely Bad After All
When we were leaving behind The Burning Crusade the general consesus from players in the forums was something like... "This is the worst expansion ever, can't wait for Wrath of the Lich King".
When we were leaving behind Wrath of the Lich King the general consesus from players in the forums was something like... "This is the worst expansion ever, can't wait for Cataclysm".
Now that we'll leave behind Cataclysm the general consesus from players in the forums, once again, is... "This is the worst expansion ever, can't wait for Mists of Pandaria".
Yet, so far, every expansion has added something positive to the game (of course, some players will say TBC was the best, some will say Wrath was the best, and so on).
Both Archeology, Transmogrification and Raid Finder have been some of the best additions in the game.
However, my guess is that some people probably don't miss the need to do some ridiculously long questchain just to get access to the newest raid, but many might just miss the quests itself. Thus my idea, why not add those quest chains back in, as optional quests, letting them tell the story and/or reason you have to do the stuff in that raid, maybe add in some kind of reward or even a final quest for the final boss... that would be nice (as an example: i really like the black temple access quest chain, the way it is nowadays)
The Lorewalkers faction should prove very interesting for all those of you that enjoy discovering the lore of Azeroth.
